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Author Topic: Your Computer Collection Favorites  (Read 3248 times)
RedWolf
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« on: March 22, 2006, 09:15:03 AM »

Do we have any old computer collectors out there?  Tell us about your collection, some of your most prized pieces, and some of your favorites.  Do you focus on one manufacturer?

I tend to have a lot of old Macs these days, as they're interesting, unique, and relatively easy to obtain.  I'm a huge fan of the Atari 8-Bit series, having grown up with a frequently-used Atari 800 in my household.  Also, I love Apple II stuff because my first computer was an Apple II+, on which I learned to program BASIC.  Fun times!

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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2006, 08:16:51 PM »

I know its not vintage or anything, but I've got sentimental value on my Sony VAiO, Pentium II with Windows 95. It was my first computer, and I cant help put value it in some special way.
Quote from: "RedWolf"
Do we have any old computer collectors out there?  Tell us about your collection, some of your most prized pieces, and some of your favorites.  Do you focus on one manufacturer?

I tend to have a lot of old Macs these days, as they're interesting, unique, and relatively easy to obtain.  I'm a huge fan of the Atari 8-Bit series, having grown up with a frequently-used Atari 800 in my household.  Also, I love Apple II stuff because my first computer was an Apple II+, on which I learned to program BASIC.  Fun times!

RedWolf
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lecroy
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2008, 08:44:15 AM »

Do we have any old computer collectors out there?  Tell us about your collection, some of your most prized pieces, and some of your favorites.
RedWolf

No so sure about collecting, but I have a few, what I would call old computers that I can't seem to toss out.   The oldest is the Incoterm SPD 10/20 built around 1970.

The Televideo TS-803.   This unit came out at the same time IBM was releasing the PC.  TeleVideo offered two versions of this system.  One based on the Z80, the other Intel based.  The Intel unit would run DOS.   To make it more interesting, I could run WordStar and Microsoft Basic on both the IBM PC and the TS803.  That's right, MicroSoft had ported some of their code to run on the Z80.   To me, this system has the PC beat hands down.  It boots faster, had more software and even had an option for a hard disk drive.  All of the function keys were programmable.  The video was higher resolution.   

An original IBM PC.  It has the first release of the ROMs.  No support for a hard disk yet.  No scanning for high ROMs.   When we think PC, we think DOS.  Many people were using CPM at the time.  I have a Byad card which allowed the PC to run CPM.  It has an on-board Z-80.  When running CPM you can still use the 8088 for spooling print files!!  It also has the original IBM memory expansion card.  This had the large metal cans on it.  The PC mother board had DIP switches to set all of the features, including the amount of RAM, video, math co-processor and disk drives.  If you think your new PC boots slow with MS Windows installed, try booting a PC with DOS.  The memory test took forever.  A trick we used to do was to set the switches on the mother board to tell the system that it had less RAM than it really did.  We then wrote a small program that told the system the correct amount of memory installed.  This got us around the memory test.

Hacking?  Well WordStar would not run with PCs with added memory.  There was a bug in there program and I had to go in, dissassemble the code, change one op-code then all was good.   

I also have an old HP realtime computer, orginal Timex Sinclair (white), original 6MHz AT (decked to the hilt),  along with a few others.   I built a disk interface for the AT to allow me to use the Quantum SA1000 drives with it.  We mostly had 5,10 and 20Meg drives back then.  20 was new and we had no idea what we would use all this space for.  But the Quantum drives were in the 40 and 80Meg.  I ran two of the 80s on the AT. 

Most of my stuff is pre-85. 


 
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Todd
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2008, 10:27:37 AM »

Nice stories!

I have a few question for lecroy about your IBM PC, if you don't mind?

Is it true that regular CP/M users avoided DOS mostly because of the "\" backslash used by DOS directories ticked them off.?

I understand with no OS the machine displayed basica from ROM. How much control could basica have on the system or for that matter debug?

Was there a version of C for the IBM PC at launch? or rather, when did PC users drop Assembly and basic for C or other languages? I ask because it seems that most games were written in basic early on then about 1983 or 84 alot of games were compiled. err.. did MS have a compiled version of basica? I'll have to look that up..

Edit: I remember reading somewhere that CP/M and DOS users were able to use the other side of their 5.25 160k floppies, any truth to that?
 
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-Wardan

   

« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 10:36:34 AM by Wardan » Logged

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RedWolf
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2008, 11:39:16 AM »

No so sure about collecting, but I have a few, what I would call old computers that I can't seem to toss out.   The oldest is the Incoterm SPD 10/20 built around 1970.

Sounds like you've got a lot of neat stuff.  For some reason, I still don't have an original IBM PC 5150 in my collection.  When I had the chance (many) to get one back in the early 1990s, I always passed them up, uninterested in PC-related stuff since it was so plentiful.  Now I kinda regret it.  Undecided  I should have grabbed all the original IBM-brand stuff I could find.

I have a pretty nice original AT, though.  I've even got the original IBM VGA card for it, which is pretty rare.  Tell me more about your decked-to-the-hilt AT.  What kind of cards do you have in it?

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lecroy
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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2008, 08:57:06 PM »

>I have a few question for lecroy about your IBM PC, if you don't mind?

No, I don't mind as long as you want to put up with my long posts..

>Is it true that regular CP/M users avoided DOS mostly because of the "\" backslash used by DOS directories ticked them off.?

Well, I can't speak for anyone other than myself.  First release of DOS had no commands.  CPM had it all (LOL).  There was no way anyone would want to run DOS.....  We were wrong...

>I understand with no OS the machine displayed basica from ROM. How much control could basica have on the system or for that matter debug?
Yes it did boot BASIC from ROM, like all the other home computers.  It also had a tape drive interface.  What was it good for?  I have no idea to this day.  All the machines we had contained at least one floppy.  We would run our Visi-schedule, Visi-trend... And they would all crash... 


>Was there a version of C for the IBM PC at launch? or rather, when did PC users drop Assembly and basic for C or other languages?
Ok, I guess I need to tip my hand a bit.  We were using the PC's for all sorts of stuff (work related) when they first came out.  The best part about the PC was they gave you everything (schematics, BIOS listing, etc).  So you could build your own hardware for it.  I did use BASIC a bit.  But,  you asked about C.  It just so happens that the answer is yes.  We used a compiler from C-Systems.  I still have a manual for it that is dated May 2, 1983.  It had a small and medium model (top break the 64K boundry).  We would run it on dual floppy PCs and it would flash from drive to drive making all sorts of noise...  20 minutes of so later, your 1000 lines of code would be compiled.   

Then IBM came out with a BASIC compiler.  I used that for a while.  Then it was MMS (Miller Micro Systems) FORTH.  Then Turbo C...   I was still using MASM until the late years of the IBM AT. 

> I ask because it seems that most games were written in basic early on then about 1983 or 84 alot of games were compiled. err.. did MS have a compiled version of basica? I'll have to look that up..
I know IBM had the one BASIC compiler back in 84 or so.   MS did not seem to have a lot back then. They had the DOS they were working on and really what else?

>Edit: I remember reading somewhere that CP/M and DOS users were able to use the other side of their 5.25 160k floppies, any truth to that?

Yes.  I even did this with the 8" floppies on the Incoterm long before this.  The media was not always the best for this but some times you got away with it.  The PC was a lot more forgiving.   This is taxing my brain a bit but if you look into the details of DOS 1.0 and the later releases, you will see a change in the amount of data stored on the 5" media.  They changed to 360K in 1.1 or 1.2 I think.  Some of us more high end geeks had the quad density drives from Memorex that could write 720K on a 360K floppy.   I still have my drive.....


Of course, I am getting old now and my memory is not what it once was, so take it for what it's worth...

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lecroy
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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2008, 09:41:24 PM »


Sounds like you've got a lot of neat stuff.  For some reason, I still don't have an original IBM PC 5150 in my collection.  When I had the chance (many) to get one back in the early 1990s, I always passed them up, uninterested in PC-related stuff since it was so plentiful.  Now I kinda regret it.  Undecided  I should have grabbed all the original IBM-brand stuff I could find.

I have a pretty nice original AT, though.  I've even got the original IBM VGA card for it, which is pretty rare.  Tell me more about your decked-to-the-hilt AT.  What kind of cards do you have in it?

By the time I bought an AT, I was hacking these PCs like there was no tomarrow. I was building all sorts of hardware for them to do all kinds of crazy things.    My AT is one of the first units made.  It has a 6MHz CPU and coprocessor.     The MFM controller is actually marked "PROTO", prototype, from Western Digital.   It also has the original video card in it along with the original IBM expansion board.    It came with a whopping 20Meg full height drive that I still have but I later swapped it for the 30M then added a 100+ Meg drive from MicroScience before I retired it.   The Quantum Q2080s were the king.   Where I worked we upgraded some of the VME systems and I took the memory for the AT.  I bought a EVEREX memory card and one other one that had a daughter board that would support 4Meg total.  Most people back then had 640K.   I also had a 20Meg IRWIN tape drive, a 1.2M and 360K floppy drives.  All stuff that could be bought, so no big deal...

However, mine was a hacking machine so I built a card for it that started out being a PROM programmer but grew over time.
I could program the 2764s, 128's and 256's opf the day, but I could also program the Motorola MC68701.  Ah, the good old days.   Then I added a 5220 LPC encoder from TI do make the PC talk.  (There were no sound cards at this time, not even the first Sound Blaster was out, which I  still have).  If you did want sound, you could PWM the speaker or just do a frequency change all with the timer.  With PWM, we could make some sounds, but nothing like what the Sound Blaster had.  As a matter of fact, I was amazed at how poor they did with the whole idea of using the PCs for games.   After all, what did we have with the very first PC, Donkey!  LOL.   After this I added a couple of ADCs and was doing some stuff with that.  Then I wrote my first BIOS hook rom, making a security system for the AT.  This was just like now how you can have the PC ask for a password in the BIOS when you boot.  No one thought it would be a good idea so I never did anything with it..   

If you remember way back then, we were all using MFM (modified FM).  I wish I had kept more of the old drives just to keep some of my equipment alive... Anyway, they later came out with RLL which was a compressor in hardware (run length limited).  Then Perstor came out with a controller that would double a drive.  I bought one of those and ran it for a few year.  I used to use some strange software to hack the drives back then.  J format was one. Pstore was another. 

If all that is not enough to bore you to sleep.....

Hacking before it was hacking?
Being in engineering I was always doing something with a computer.  I was always amazed at what companies were doing to try and copy protect their discs.  COPYIIPC and Hardrunner was the norm.   As the PC (PCPC) was getting more common, programs started to come out that actually did something other than play Donkey and Music.     SPICE came out for the PC.  SPICE is an engineering tool that we ran on a VAX back then.    Now this was the first software I ever saw that they actually burned the floppy and you could not copy it.  The software was expensive and so if you were a budding engineer wanting to play with the software at home, you had to take the master disc #1 home with you.   I had reverse engineered a few programs by that time and decided to see what it would take to copy SPICE.   Out came Debug, ah.. it was a packed exe file.  So I looked at all of the software on the discs and read the manuals.  I leanred they wrote the SPICE using Microsoft Fortran.   Then I discovered that for the power users of SPICE, they had supplied the object files so you could include your own library of parts and rebuild it.  It just so happened that we used Fortran, so no problem.  I just rebuilt it all as an unpacked exe.  Then out cam Debug a second time.  A few hours later of looking at assembler code and watching two PCs single step, I had a version of the EXE that would run without the master floppy #1. 


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RedWolf
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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2008, 11:11:51 AM »

By the time I bought an AT, I was hacking these PCs like there was no tomarrow. I was building all sorts of hardware for them to do all kinds of crazy things.    My AT is one of the first units made.  It has a 6MHz CPU and coprocessor.     The MFM controller is actually marked "PROTO", prototype, from Western Digital.   It also has the original video card in it along with the original IBM expansion board.    It came with a whopping 20Meg full height drive that I still have but I later swapped it for the 30M then added a 100+ Meg drive from MicroScience before I retired it.   The Quantum Q2080s were the king.   Where I worked we upgraded some of the VME systems and I took the memory for the AT.  I bought a EVEREX memory card and one other one that had a daughter board that would support 4Meg total.  Most people back then had 640K.   I also had a 20Meg IRWIN tape drive, a 1.2M and 360K floppy drives.  All stuff that could be bought, so no big deal...

That's pretty cool stuff.  The question is: what did you use those big hard drives for?  Did you ever fill them up back then?
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lecroy
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2008, 08:02:11 PM »


That's pretty cool stuff.  The question is: what did you use those big hard drives for?  Did you ever fill them up back then?

To me, putting the big drives on the PC back then was not so much about having more drive space or that I would have a need for such a thing, it was about the act of making it work.  Anyone can go out and buy just about anything you could imagine for a PC today.  Back then, there just wasn't anything much outside the worn pages of your IBM Technical Reference manuals and your imagination.    If you wanted something, you wire wrapped it, you wrote the code, you debugged it.   It's a shallow victory to plug your board it and install a few drivers to make something work.   We have become users of the technology. The most your going to hear someone brag about now days it what new PC they bought or how they "built" it (LOL!!) and the latest video board they bought.  And so its more about how much you can spend on a PC rather than what you have learned to do with a PC. 

I doubt I ever filled up the two 80Meg drives before I retired them.  I ended up giving them to a friend of mine who later passed on.  I have no idea what happened to them after that but would guess the family put them in the dump.  I may still have the service manuals that I used to hack them, but that would be it.
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